Where to Listen:
What makes the food you eat healthy? Turns out it’s a pretty complicated question that goes way beyond the four food groups. In this episode, Amy visits Starry Nights Farm in Burlington to learn about some groundbreaking research—involving beef raised right here in Wisconsin—that’s changing the way we look at food and nutrition.
Host:
Amy Barrilleaux
Guests:
Paul Maggio and Marisa Wiewall, Starry Nights Farm
Resources for You:
Nutritional Comparisons Between Grass-Fed Beef and Conventional Grain-Fed Beef
Defining Nutrient Density in Beef
Defender Episode 57: Wisconsin’s Forbidden Fruit
Transcript:
Amy Hello, welcome to The Defender, Wisconsin’s environmental podcast. I’m Amy Barrilleaux. The Defenders powered by Clean Wisconsin, your environmental voice since 1970. So what makes the food you eat healthy? Turns out it’s a really complicated question that goes way beyond the four food groups. In fact, some groundbreaking new research involving beef raised right here in Wisconsin is changing the way we look at food and nutrition. In this episode, I visit Starry Nights Farm in Burlington to find out how the native Wisconsin grasses, flowers, even weeds on their farm actually change the beef that ends up on our plates and how it’s all connected to the health of our environment. That’s right now on The Defender. I know you’ve heard the phrase, you are what you eat. But when it comes to meat, new research from Utah State University shows it’s more like, you are what the food you’re eating ate. How an animal is raised, what it eats, its environment, deeply influences how healthy it will be for you. Starry Nights Farm participated in the study, which measured a wide range of compounds in beef, from macronutrients and fatty acids to phytochemicals and essential minerals. Spoiler alert, the beef raised on their pastures had more of the good healthy compounds than conventional beef, a lot more. For farm owners Paul Maggio and Marisa Weiwall, the study’s findings are a validation of the philosophy they’ve had from the very beginning. Farm the way nature intended. I toured the farm and then sat down with Paul and Marisa who left busy careers in Chicago to turn a conventional crop farm with depleted soils and chemical runoff. Into an organic beef farm with rolling hills of deep rooted perennial pastures, trees and roaming happy livestock. Paul and Marisa, thank you so much for having me out to your lovely farm. Before we get into the nutrition and the environment, how did you come up with the name Starry Nights Farm?
Marisa Yeah, so when we first bought the farm, we were living in Chicago in the city and we came to visit one of our first visits. I knew it was getting to nighttime and our then three-year-old, four-year old looked up and said, why are there so many stars? She had never seen that many stars because of coming from the city, you don’t see them like that. So from there we were like, yeah, you’re going to see starry nights here. So it just became Starry Nights Farm.
Amy Yeah, definitely a whole different experience from being in Chicago, coming out here to rural Wisconsin. What was the journey? How did you end up deciding to move from Chicago to a farm in Burlington?
Paul So we were, I grew up in Kenosha, so this is Kenoshe County, but we used to come from Chicago up here to visit family. And we thought, you know, someday maybe we’d be back in Kenoshia someplace after we leave Chicago. And I said to Marisa, I said, well, you know, it’d be nice if we could buy some land, you know. Then I just started looking around, you know, and I looked for about three years in this. One popped up on the market and we were able to buy it and the day after we closed on it Marissa said I have no interest in conventional farming because if we’re going to have our family there I don’t want to be around you know all the chemicals etc with that we’ve got to do it organically and then we looked for an organic farmer in Kenosha there was none we looked for one and we’re seeing there was none and then we found someone that was an organic farmer, it’s in Walworth County in East Troy, and then basically they mentored us on how to convert the land with the kind of vision that we have where we’re at and looking at, you know, grass-fed beef and perennial pastures, etc.
Marisa Um, a little backtrack, we did not intend to farm.
Amy That’s what I was going to ask, like, did you grow up thinking, you know, I want to be on a Wisconsin farm someday, or?
Marisa Nope. I grew up in Puerto Rico, actually. So, no. But even when we bought the land, we had no intentions of farming it necessarily, or even living here. We really bought it more as an investment and we were just going to rent it to farmers. However, at that time, I had converted from my corporate accounting career to study nutrition. So I had been learning a little bit more about how food was grown and. You know, nutrients and all the other stuff. And that’s when I told him, it’s like, well, if we’re going to buy this land, we might as well rent it to someone that can do it organic or can we just do it a little more. So it wasn’t necessarily about us being here. It was more about, I just wanted it that way if we could. But like Paul said, we could not find organic farmers in the area. So it was hard to find who could do this for us. So we did rent that to the farmer that was here for a year. And then slowly we started learning a little bit, getting a mentor through Marble Seed, what was Moses before, reading, going to conferences just to see if we could do it from Chicago.
Amy Do it from Chicago that, so basically you just, you didn’t want, you bought this land but you didn t want a bunch of chemicals to be spread all over it, which was I guess what was here before you took it over as a farm, was it corn or?
Marisa Yeah, corn, soy maybe, but mostly corn. And yeah, I mean, they were raising beef, but it was like in the barns, like inside. And so pretty conventional farming. But yeah, we did some soil testing, right? And it was pretty depleted. So we knew that it needed some work. So that’s when we, that’s how we started. So it was just, it was a slow process. We sort of started with like, ones that rent. Renter went out, then we started replenishing the land and cover crops and what else did we do.
Paul A lot of cover crops spreading different manures or some mined minerals on it to try and bring back some of the biology in the soil.
Amy So when we drove around the farm, Paul, you told me that the cows that are out on pasture have never been in a barn, which for me, as a person who thinks cow and barn are, you know, practically can’t live without a barn. I found that surprising. Do people, when you take them out here and you show them what you do, what is, I guess, the most surprising or interesting part of this whole landscape for folks?
Paul Oh, I mean, I guess that aspect of… What we see happen is the cows are in a place where they don’t move, in a barn or in a pen, and the food is grown and then moved to them. So in a sense, we’re doing the opposite. We’re taking the animals that can move to the food or to the forage that can’t move rather than the opposite that happens in the conventional world. So that has some economies for us as a grazer. Know, a lot of the stuff’s the animals are doing all the work for us. They’re harvesting etc. So and they’re depositing and fertilizing and and what have you. So I think that’s a big surprise for people. I think the that a farm it would be as inviting as this place is by having places like oh I want to explore that or I want to walk there I want a be in there compared to maybe if you go to a conventional farm, you know you kind of stop at the edge of the cornfield. You don’t really go in there or a soybean field. So it feels a little more uninviting.
Marisa Also a lot of people do tell us like it doesn’t smell like a farm, like manure or something like that. So that’s also surprising for folks that it’s not a smelly.
Amy That’s true because we were, I mean, we literally drove, you know, one of those little, I guess you would call it like a four wheeler type thing, through the cow pasture. There was manure everywhere and it, you could smell it, but it wasn’t like the acrid ammonia kind of smell that you associate with cow manure, especially here in Wisconsin where we have so many kind of concentrated animal operations. Um, I do want to get to the barn thing for a second though, because it’s so integral, I think, to our vision of a Wisconsin farm. Marisa, you were telling me a story about when you had a designer work on a logo for this farm, what the first thing they presented you was.
Marisa Yeah, it was a barn, a barn on the cow in the barn or around the barn. And we both said, it’s like, no, we don’t, don’t put the barns. Cause that’s the whole point of our farm is they’re outside. So it was just grasses and then the cow and a dark night with some stars.
Amy So the cows are outside all the time, rain or shine or snow, eating perennial plants, moving from pasture to pasture. So let’s talk about what that means for the beef. In that Utah State analysis, what are some of the things that have come out of that study?
Marisa Yeah, I think the first one, the most impressive one was the omega-3 to omega-6. So the difference is very significant from conventional cows. And they studied all over the world. It’s not just in the United States. It’s been all over world, different farms, different kinds of farms, but it was corn-fed versus grass-fed, conventional versus regenerative, that kind of thing. Um, they did find also the more variety of plants, the more omega threes. Um, but I think, do you remember the numbers exactly? Cause I think it was pretty significant from.
Paul Yeah, I mean, I think that the conventional and, you know, one of the things was omega-3, omega-6s, you know, grains are high in omega- 6s, not so high in Omega-3s. Forages, grasses, etc. Are higher omega- 3s. So that showed that I think the average for grass-fed was 2 to 1. The corn-fed was probably 7 or 10 to 1, so 4 times better. For the Omega-3s that you’re getting. And not only do they, you know, I guess too… They not only did it for grass-fed beef, but they also did it for other things that we eat, you know, so pork, chicken, deer. So with those type of things, it still showed those same type of thing, but even to a greater extent, like for instance, pork, if it’s a conventionally raised pig with no access to pasture, et cetera, that ratio was almost 30 to one. So it just shows kind of like our whole diet. Is based on, if you look at those three crops that we grow, corn, soybeans, wheat, and that’s what we feed to the animals, we’re gonna get that, what was it called, the SAD diet, the standard American diet. We have, with processed foods, et cetera, all based on those three crafts that we grew, we have like a 20 to one is what our diet consists of. So how can we get that lowered? Or how can we do that? And I think that’s part of the…
Marisa Yeah. I mean, omega-3s have been shown to be much better, you know, for lower inflammation versus too much omega-6. They’re both necessary, but there is so much that we get of omega- 6 that it’s out of balance. That’s really the key. And it’s, like Paul said, all the crops, all these grains driving that omega- six so much higher in our diet. So that’s why a lot of people are walking around with so much inflammation, which causes a whole host of chronic conditions and other lower level conditions, but definitely that imbalance. So that’s why you see recommended a lot take your omega threes, eat fish, which is, you know, eat fish. Yeah, that’s one way to get your omega-3s, but like Paul said, you grass-fed beef also has a lot of good omega-3s, so.
Amy So I used to live in Iowa and I remember being at the meat case and asking the guy behind the meatcase, do you have any grass-fed beef? And he said, you know, corn-fed is better because you’re going to get better marbling and you’re gonna get a tastier steak or roast or whatever. And so I thought, oh, okay, you, know, but maybe that’s not the whole story.
Marisa Yeah, there’s two experiences for me that kind of, from the beginning, that this thing about taste, and a lot of people say that it’s like, oh, the marbling, the fat, it’s better in corn fed. And yes, of course, they are fatter cows. I mean, you’re feeding, it is like feeding candy to a kid, if you, or in this case to a cow, you are feeding a bunch of candy, this is, converts to sugar or all this corn, so, and it becomes fat. So yes, it going to have a lot more fat. But The thing is, there’s three things that create taste in food and it’s fat, sugar, salt, right? So that’s going to taste like fat and fat tastes good to people. However, is that what beef should taste like? Not really. And, you know, grass-fed beef is going to tastes, it has more of a beef flavor and in and of itself without sauces, without anything, it just tastes delicious. You become to appreciate what beef shouldn’t taste like. And it’s not super different, but it does. Have its own taste and that’s what it should taste like and the other experience we had is we traveled to South America one time and they put sauces, chimichurri for bread and for different things and we started putting it in our beef and one of the person that was hosting or the person who was grilling the steaks and staff was like, no, no don’t put it on the beef. They were like, the beef should taste like beef, you know, and then, you know, we started that conversation with them and they were very proud about the taste of their beef, which was grass fed, so they were like don’t put any sauce on it, you should be able to taste the beef. So fat is going to taste great, but that’s not the intention. So you want to taste beef for what it is.
Amy And we were talking about cows that get raised on corn. They just have like this sort of one thing that they eat. And so then when you eat the beef, you’re just getting that one sort of whatever nutrient might come from the corn or the fat that comes from the corner. But out here, there’s like all kinds of plants. And I guess that leads to better, more different types of nutrients. Is that right?
Paul Yeah, that’s right. I mean, if you think about, you know, if we have 30 different plants out here that the cows all have access to, each of those plants have all different, you know that we don’t even know that the type of nutrients and chemicals and whatever they’re doing, phytonutrients that are in those that the plant is giving to the cow. The cow, because they’re ruminant, they can digest all those things that we can as human beings. And they can imbue those into their milk, into their meat, and we get to have those in our diet that we normally couldn’t get, but we can get now through the animal.
Amy And the cows are, if I understand correctly, healthier, right, because they are meant to eat a bunch of grass and weeds and things, and they’re not really meant to eat sort of processed corn.
Paul Correct, I mean they’re called herbivores, is the technical term, so they’re used to eating forages, that’s what they’re made to eat rather than a very starchy, that can cause other ailments within the animal, but yeah, they’re they’re made to digest forages.
Amy It’s a little tricky because when people think about the classic farm, they think about the red barn and they think, I think increasingly they think of corn because we see so much corn on the landscape in Wisconsin and also soybeans to some extent. And so you came, you got this farm, I imagine corn and potentially soybeans were growing on it. You’ve worked now for more than a decade to to change things. Is it hard though to drive around Wisconsin and see still so much of this kind of conventional agriculture that has been so hard on the soil and so hard on the animals and hard on, on the landscapes and our, our water quality?
Paul I guess for me, yes, just because I think, you know, it’s called corn culture that we have and it’s like if you’re not a farmer, if you don’t grow corn, you know, but and it is all supported through different, through the whole system. But I feel like with, you know, at one time, 80 years ago or whatever it was, farmers, it was a forage-based diet and then they grew some corn and then corn, you know added some value and could do some things to the animals, give more energy. Some protein there too. And then people start thinking, well, why don’t I just feed more corn, you know, and then it just kind of got flipped on its head from being a forage base to being a corn based ration. And I think that that, you know has completely gone too far, too much of a good thing is that. And the second we, it’s such a crop that takes so much resource to grow. It’s no longer used for food for animals, more than half of it goes into ethanol. I mean, think about something that you’re like, oh, I can make ethanol with it as an industrial product, or I can feed it to an animal, or are converted eventually into high fructose corn syrup, but something doesn’t sound right about that, that this product can be used all these different ways, and they just have to find more ways, because. We overproduce it. It’s not even feeding the world. It’s like we’re stuffing this down everybody’s throat because we make so much of it. And it’s just, it’s overdone in my.
Amy So we’ve talked a little bit about, I guess, some of the problems with conventional agriculture. And it’s a big system. It can feel like, and the farmers that are in it are trying to succeed as part of the agricultural system that we’ve built in the United States. So when you’re on a farm like this, it feels so different. Do you feel like you’re kind of making a difference, showing people what’s possible and maybe a different path in farming in Wisconsin?
Paul I think when, so we’re, what makes us a bit different too, we’re super connected to the client, the people that buy directly from us. So when that happens, like just last week we had, I don’t know, what do we have? 40 or 50 people come to the farm to pick up their share of the beef that they bought from us, that we had processed. And people come and they’re like, hey, oh, it’s great to meet you, or thank you so much. What you do is really… Is great for our family and it’s helping my health. It’s, you know, all these different things and you’re like, wow, that’s inspiring. You know, when you hear that, which I think, you now, maybe if you’re farming other ways, you don’t have that connection that you do to the client. So I think that’s really the big thing that gives me inspiration when they come to the farm. Now sometimes when I drive other places, I’m like, oh God, this is too big. I mean, it’s just. But we try to do other things too. I think we feel blessed for what we’ve been, we have here and the clients and then the appreciation, but we wanna be able to extend that to other farmers too. So we have our watershed group that we started here. It’s sponsored by Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, but we have other farmers that are looking to find ways. To make farming work from an economic standpoint. So if they want to connect directly to the clients, or how can we, for grain farmers, can we have them use less inputs so they can be more profitable by using biology rather than chemistry to farm? Can they find other markets rather than going to the ethanol plant or the local grain elevator because they’re producing a… A better product using regenerative agriculture. So, you know, those are thoughts that we’re trying to like, you know the saying about how do you eat an elephant and you take one bite at a time, you now what I mean? But this is a massive elephant, but I think we’re seeing people, there’s changes in the wind. I mean, we feel it, but again, in our little way we do our part, you.
Amy So I should mention that this is also kind of an agro-tourism place. People can actually come and stay on the farm and learn all about what you’re doing here. And I know Paul used that term regenerative agriculture, which kind of describes this whole system. But it’s not a term I think most people are super familiar with, and it’s kind of a mouthful. So Marisa, when you have people come out here to the farm, how do you describe what you are doing here?
Marisa I think the way to explain it to me, the easiest way to explain it would be, it’s just how nature intended it. I mean, if you go back to American grasslands, Bisons rotating and migrating and they move around and just, it kind of, you know, and then their manure fertilizing the soil, it just a system, them eating enough that it kind promotes growth, but then they move and then they that root, you know. Regenerate. It’s all just nature. That’s just how nature works. So to me, I mean, that’s a way kind of we explain it. With clients, they’ve seen it, they heard it. Most of the clients that come to us, they have seen and heard it and they know a little bit about it. And we usually try to do a tour once a year in the summer and folks can come and we drive around and explain. And yeah, I don’t know. Is there…
Paul I think you said it perfectly, I think nature, the more we can encourage nature, mimic nature, we’re going to have not only a good system because it’s been going for millions and millions of years, so we know it works and then too that it’s going to be healthy because all of us have evolved eating that way, you know, that’s our whole evolution has been eating that, not something that’s changed in the past 50 or 70 years. But we know that because nature has brought it that way, it’s the best way.
Amy Well, thank you both so much for taking the time to show me your beautiful farm and for explaining the philosophy behind it. I really appreciate it.
Paul Yeah, thank you. Thanks for coming.
Amy And thank you for listening to the Defender podcast. We have a link to that ongoing Utah State University study, plus lots of episodes about Wisconsin farming and food and the environment that you can dive into. Just check the show notes or head to cleanwisconsin.org. I’m Amy Barilleaux. Talk to you later.
